Republican Presidential Debate 2008-01-30

COOPER: That said, let's begin. The first question is actually a question that will go to all of you, but I'll start with Governor Romney.

Ronald Reagan himself asked this question during a debate. During a 1980 debate, he suggested Americans determine who to vote for by asking themselves, are you better off than you were four years ago?

So tonight, in terms of the economy, are Americans better off than they were eight years ago?

ROMNEY: Well, if you're voting for George Bush, you'd be very interested in knowing the answer to that. If you're voting for

Mitt Romney, you'd like to know are you better off in Massachusetts after four years of my term in office, and the answer would be decidedly yes.

I came into a state which was very much in a deep ditch. It was losing money every month. We had a $3 billion budget gap. We had people losing jobs every single month. During my predecessor's term, we lost 160,000 jobs. We kept losing jobs for a couple of years. We got it turned around, began adding jobs back. We won some huge contracts to bring in some new employers into the state. Some of the haven't even built their facilities yet. We solved our budget problem, $3 billion budget gap, without raising taxes. We were able to do that in a way that I think surprised folks.

COOPER: Let me just interrupt, though. The question was, are Americans better off than they were eight years ago? And as you know, there are a lot of Americans out right now who are very interested in the answer. They're not feeling particularly good about their home sales, the value of their homes dropping down, or the unemployment rate rising.

How do you feel America is doing?

ROMNEY: Well, again, I'm pleased with what I did while I was -- as governor. I'm happy to talk that record. With regard to -- with --

COOPER: Are you running for governor, or are you running for president, though?

ROMNEY: Well, I'm not -- but I'm not running on President Bush's record. President Bush can talk about his record.

Washington is badly broken. I think we recognize that. Washington has not dealt with the problems that we have in this nation, hasn't reduced burdens on our middle class, hasn't solved the Social Security problems, hasn't dealt with the health care crisis that we have in this country, hasn't improved our schools as much we'd like to get them improved.

Nevertheless, this president did pull us out of a deep recession. He put in place two tax cuts, which did get the -- your country out of a recession and helped rebuild the country.

Now we see ourselves headed apparently towards one again. We hope not. Whether there's a recession technically or not, one thing we know. Middle-income families are feeling squeezed, and people are losing homes. And people are having a hard time paying for their gasoline, and they're having a hard time paying for heating oil in places that that's a big part of their life.

And as a result, we get people that feel there needs to be a change in Washington, and that's something I represent.

COOPER: Senator McCain, are Americans better off than they were eight years ago?

MCCAIN: I think you could argue that Americans over all are better off because we have had a pretty good, prosperous time with low unemployment and low inflation, and a lot of good things have happened, a lot of jobs have been created.

But let's have some straight talk. Things are tough right now. Americans are uncertain of -- of this housing crisis. Americans are uncertain about the economy as we see the stock market bounce up and down. But more importantly, the economy, particularly in some parts of the country, the state of Michigan, where Governor Romney and I campaigned -- not to my success, I might add -- and other parts of the country are probably better off.

But look, I think what we're trying to do to fix this economy is important. We've got to address the housing subprime -- housing problem. We need to obviously have this package go through the Congress as quickly as possible. We need to make the Bush tax cuts permanent, which I voted for twice to do so. I think we need to eliminate the alternate minimum tax that sits out there and challenges 25 million American families.

COOPER: It sounds like that we're not better off, is what you're saying.

MCCAIN: Pardon me.

COOPER: It sounds like you're saying we're not better off.

MCCAIN: I think we are better off overall, if you look at the entire eight-year period, when you look at the millions of jobs that have been created, the improvement in the economy, et cetera.

But I'm trying to emphasize, Anderson, that we are in a very serious challenge right now. There's a lot of Americans very uncertain about their future, and we've got to give them some comfort. We've got to give them some stimulus. We've got to give them some tax relief. We've got to stop this outrageous, squandering spending that causes us to have to borrow money from China, and we've got to get our fiscal house in order.

I think we went on a spending spree that frankly betrayed Ronald Reagan's principles about tax cuts and restraint of spending.

COOPER: Let me skip a question now, just to -- I said I would ask everyone.

So, Governor Huckabee, if you can briefly, are we better off than we were eight years ago?

HUCKABEE: I don't think we are.

And the real issue though -- let's not blame President Bush for all of this. We've got a Congress who's sat around on their hands and done nothing but spend a lot of money, and their spending, leaving us $9 trillion in debt, that we're passing on to our grandchildren. I don't blame the president solely for that.

So I think if we're asking, you know, is George Bush responsible for all this?

No. But are we better off? Well, let's look at some factors.

Right now home sales are -- new home starts anywhere are down 40 percent. That's going to have a cascading impact on everybody who sells lumber, who is in the building trades. If you talk to people who are driving trucks across America today, their fuel prices are significantly higher than they were a year ago. They're hurting because they're not making a lot more money to haul something, but they're spending a lot more money to get it done. And all over our economy with the unemployment up to 5 percent across the nation that means there are a lot of families today that don't have a paycheck, and if you don't have a paycheck, it's hard to put groceries on the table and it's hard to pay the rent.

And I think what Americans are looking for is somebody who's just honest with them and straight with them, and tell them that, no, it's not better and it's not going to get better unless we have some serious leadership in Washington that says that we're going to have to start having policies that touch the people not just at the top, but the people at the bottom, and they feel like they're invisible to a lot of people in government today.

COOPER: Congressman Paul, 61 percent of Americans think there's a recession already. Sixty-one percent of Americans say there's already a recession. Are we better off than we were eight years ago?

PAUL: No, no, we're not better off, we're worse off, but it's partially this administration's fault and it's the Congress. But it also involves an economic system that we've had for a long time and a monetary system that we've had a foreign policy that's coming to an end, and we have to -- to admit this.

You know, the Republicans were elected in 1994 to change direction of the country, because people sensed there was something wrong, we were going the wrong direction, but we didn't do anything.

In the year 2000 we did also. We were -- we were elected in the year 2000 to have a humble foreign policy and not police the world. Yet what we doing now? We're bogged down in another war. We're bankrupting our country. And we're -- we have an empire that we're trying to defend. It costs us a trillion dollars a year.

And the standard of living is going down today. But it's going down, and the middle class is hurting because of the monetary policy. When you destroy a currency, the middle class gets wiped out. Poor countries don't even have middle classes. We used to have one, and they're on the ropes right now. But it has to do with a fiscal policy, monetary policy and foreign policy of way too much spending. But it took a lot of years for us to get here. The people in this country have been begging for a change in direction, and they haven't had it.

COOPER: We've got --

PAUL: It's time we gave it to them.

COOPER: We've got a lot of -- lot to get to on the economy.

To begin with, let's go to Janet Hook of the LA Times.

HOOK: Governor Romney, you've spent the last several days warning voters that John McCain as president would follow, quote, "liberal Democratic -- a liberal Democratic" course. But by most measures, doesn't he have a pretty mainstream conservative record?

ROMNEY: I'm sure, on many issues, he does, and he's a good Republican. I wouldn't question those credentials at all, but there are a number of pieces of legislation where his views are out of the mainstream, at least in my view, of conservative Republican thought.

So, for instance, he's opposed to drilling in ANWR, I believe.

If I'm wrong, correct me, Senator.

He voted twice against the Bush tax cuts. Only two Republicans did that. He is the co-author of McCain-Feingold, which I think took a whack at the First Amendment, and I do believe it's well hurt our party pretty significantly. And I think it's made money have an even greater influence in politics today, not less influence.

He also was one of the co-authors of McCain-Kennedy. The first bill, by the way, not that bad -- about 5 or 10 percent of the people, by our calculation, got a form of amnesty. Most people went home. Under the final version of McCain-Kennedy, everybody who was here illegally, other than those who committed crimes, was eligible to receive a Z visa. For $3,000, they got to stay here for the rest of their life. That's not a Republican thought.

And then now McCain-Lieberman, which is a unilateral, meaning U.S.-only-imposed, cap-and-trade program, which puts a burden, as much as 50 cents a gallon, on gasoline in this country.

It basically says Americans are going to pay for the cost of global warming, not the Chinese and Indians and so forth.

So those views are outside the mainstream of Republican conservative thought. And I guess I'd also note that if you get endorsed by The New York Times, you're probably not a conservative. (Laughs.) (Laughter.)

COOPER: Senator McCain?

MCCAIN: Let me note that I was endorsed by your two hometown newspapers, who know you best.

COOPER: I know.

MCCAIN: Including the very conservative Boston Herald, who know --

ROMNEY: (I'd say ?) the same thing.

MCCAIN: -- you well, better than anybody. So I -- I'll guarantee you the Arizona Republic will endorsing me, my friend. (Chuckles.) (Laughter.)

Let me just say I'm proud of my conservative record. It's one of reaching across the aisle to get things done for Americans, obviously, whether it be McCain-Lieberman, that established the 9/11 commission, and then the legislation that implemented that, or whether it be working across the aisle on the Armed Services Committee to provide the men and women with what they need to defend this nation. And I'm proud of that record.

And I heard Governor Romney describe his record.

As I understand it, his record was that he raised taxes by $730 million. He called them fees; I'm sure the people that had to pay it -- whether they called them bananas, they still had to pay $730 million extra. His job creation was the third worst in the country as far as job creation is concerned, and as we all know, he has sattled the people of Massachusetts with a $245 million because of a big government-mandated health care system. And while the rest of the country was losing 7 percent of the manufacturing jobs while he was governor, 14 percent of the manufacturing jobs left the state of Massachusetts.

So I am proud of my record, and I am proud of reaching across the aisle and getting things done. That's what the American people want us to do, and the legislation and the activities I've done, particularly in America's defense, particularly in the fact that I've been involved in every major national security challenge this nation has faced. And by the way, I think it would be hard for people like Jack Kemp and Tom Ridge, former head of the Department of Homeland Security, and Phil Graham and all of the long list of conservatives that support me, both governors -- conservative governors -- in fact, your former lieutenant governor, who spent a lot of time on the campaign trail with us.

But the point is that I'm proud of the people that have surrounded me and are supporting people, and whether they come from one part of the spectrum or the other, strong conservatives are ones who are supporting me. And I'm proud of their support, and I'll rely on people to judge me by the company that I keep.

COOPER: Governor Romney?

ROMNEY: Okay. (Chuckles.) I got a little work to do here. Let me -- let me help you with the facts here, Senator.

First of all, my lieutenant governor, Kerry Healey, endorsed me and is supporting me and is working all over the state for me. My predecessor in office, Governor Swift, Governor Swift is supporting you. When you say that our state ranked number three in job creation, the study you're relying upon is a study that included her term in office, and during her term in office, 141,000 jobs were lost. During my term in office we added jobs, and from the lowest point we added 60,000 new jobs.

So that study unfortunately included the wrong data.

With regards to fees, we raised fees $240 million, not $730 million. Facts are stubborn things. We audited our fee increase, because, of course, we cared.

Now, why did we raise fees 230 million -- $240 million? We had a $3 billion budget shortfall. We decided we were not going to raise taxes. And we found that some fees hadn't been raised in as many as 20 years.

These were not broad-based fees for things getting your driver's license or your license plate for your car, but instead something like the cost of a sign on the interstate and how much it was going to cost to publish a McDonald's or Burger King sign on the -- on the interstate. We went from like $200 a sign to $2,000 a sign, to raise money for our state in a way that was consistent with what the market had done over the ensuing years.

And let's see. Oh, with regards to my health care plan, you know, a lot of people talk about health care. I'm the only one that got the job done. I got health insurance for all our citizens. We had 460,000 people without insurance. We got 300 of them -- 300,000 of them signed up for insurance now. I'm proud of what we accomplished.

The bill that I submitted to the legislature didn't cost one dollar more than what we were already spending. However, the legislature and now the new Democratic governor have added some bells and whistles, and they're willing to pay for them.

I wouldn't do that if I were governor. I'd veto the items they put in place there, but they're entitled to make changes if they want to. They're still running a balanced budget.

I wouldn't have added the money they did and by they way, no debt was left. I left a rainy day fund of over $2 billion. Facts are stubborn things. I'm proud of my record.

COOPER: Governor Huckabee, Rush Limbaugh says if you or Senator McCain were nominated, would be the nominee, you would, quote, "destroy the Republican party." Your reaction?

HUCKABEE: You know, I wish Rush loved me as much as I love Rush. I think he's a great voice for conservativism. It doesn't mean he's inerrant or infallible and on this, he's very wrong.

And I want to make sure everybody understands, this isn't a two- man race. There's another guy, I would like to say, down here on the far right of the stage. You want to talk conservative credentials?

Let me get in on that.

I created the first-ever broad-based tax cuts in the 160-year history of my state, when I became governor, with a 90 percent Democrat legislature. I also balanced a budget every one of the 10- and-a-half years. The only person that's sitting here today that has consistently supported a human life amendment, that's been part of our Republican platform since 1980, and also supports a marriage amendment to our Constitution -- two conservative hallmarks.

I believe in less government. I believe in lower taxes, not higher.

I think it's important to streamline the federal government, like we streamlined some services in Arkansas. Simple things like getting a driver's car tag, because it used to take a couple of days and about seven pieces of paper. We streamlined it so it could be done on the Internet in 4-1/2 minutes. We consolidated state agencies. We cut 11 percent out of the budget.

One of the things that Rush Limbaugh once praised me for was creating what I call the no -- the Tax Me More fund. The way that worked was that we had a lot of people in our legislature wanted us to raise taxes, and I said we don't need to raise taxes, we need to cut our spending. And so I created a fund called the Tax Me More fund.

I said, there's nothing in the law that says that you can't just pay more if you want to. And I had envelopes printed. And I said, anybody who wants to pay more taxes, just fill it up with whatever will make you feel better, and send it right in.

And it proved that a whole lot of people didn't really want to pay more taxes after all, because after about a year and a half, there was only about $1,200 in the account, $1,000 of which had been given by a liberal legislator.

So if we're going to talk conservatism, I'd like to be in on the discussion.

COOPER: Let's talk more about that. Jim VandeHei from Politico.

VANDEHEI: First question from the readers, Governor Romney, is from Jonathan Rubin (sp) in Fairfax, Virginia. As governor of Massachusetts, as Senator McCain just pointed out, you raised hundreds of millions of dollars in additional revenue through so-called fees and loophole closings, and you passed a health care bill forcing individuals to buy insurance under threat of a fine.

How do you reconcile that policy with your claim to be the authentic conservative?

ROMNEY: Well, let's talk about each. I mentioned fees, and I think it's appropriate if the state is providing a service to someone -- that's not a requirement to have a car or a driver's license, but instead, let's say, we're going to be taking out a oil tank from your backyard because it's leaking into the ground and the state's going to provide that service, that to charge a fee sufficient to do so makes a lot of sense. And so the fees ought to be adjusted from time to time to compose the amount of what the cost of providing that service, and if there hasn't been a fee raise in a couple of decades, you probably have some inflation in there you ought to adjust for.

But then secondly, with regards to my health care plan, let me describe what I think is the ultimate conservative approach. In this country you have today about 47 million people that don't have health insurance. We went out and tried to find out why they don't. We found out that about half of them could afford to buy insurance if it were reasonably priced; they could afford to buy it, but they weren't buying it. And we asked them why, and they said, well, why should we buy it? If we get sick, we can go to the hospital and get care for free. And we said, you know what? If somebody could afford insurance, they should either by the insurance or pay their own way.

They don't have to buy insurance if they don't want to, but pay their own way. But they shouldn't be allowed just to show up at the hospital and say, "Somebody else should pay for me."

And so we said no more free riders. It was like bringing workfare to welfare. We said if you can afford insurance, then either have the insurance or get a health savings account, pay your own way, but no more free ride. And that was what the mandate did. It said you've got to come up with either the insurance or health savings account or alike.

I think it's the conservative approach to make sure that people who can afford care are getting it at their expense, not at the expense of the taxpayers and government. That I consider to be a step towards socialism.

COOPER: Our next question is from Janet Hook of the LA Times.

HOOK: This is for Senator McCain. Senator McCain, Governor Schwarzenegger has proposed that California be allowed to implement much tougher environmental regulations on emissions requirements than are -- that apply to the rest of the country. This is an initiative that conservatives generally oppose, and the Bush administration rejected California's request. Do you side with the governor or with the Bush administration?

MCCAIN: Well, and with some physical danger, I have to agree -- (laughter) -- with -- with the governor.

Look, I'm a federalist, and I believe the states should decide to enormous degrees what happens within those states, including off their coasts. The people of California have decided they don't want oil drilling off their coasts. The people of Louisiana have decided that they do.

I applaud the governor's efforts, and that of other states in this region, and other states across America, to try to eliminate the greenhouse gas emissions that are causing climate change.

Now, suppose that the governor and I are wrong, and there's no such thing as climate change. And we adopt these green technologies, of which America and the innovative skills we have and the entrepreneurship and the free market, which is embodied by Senator Lieberman's and my cap-and-trade proposal, is enacted, and there's no such thing as climate change. Then all we've done is give our kids a cleaner world.

But suppose we do nothing. Suppose we do nothing and we don't eliminate this $400 billion dependence we have on foreign oil. Some of that money goes to terrorist organizations and also contributes to greenhouse gas emissions. Then what kind of a world have we given our children?

The state of California and the state of Arizona -- we Westerners care very much about our environment and we want to act. And it's no secret that I have disagreed with the Bush administration in not being more active in addressing the issue of climate change, whether it be through cap-and-trade, through tax incentives or R&D for green technologies and many other measures that I think need to be taken.

We are -- we are feeling here in California pollution from China. It is a global issue and we have to address it globally. And I would not agree to any global agreement without India and China being part of it.

But I want to assure you that we have an obligation to try to stem this greenhouse gas emissions, and one of the ways is through use of nuclear power. The French generate 80 percent of their electricity with nuclear power. I think that -- by the way, we now have a pro- American president of France, which shows if you live long enough, anything is possible in this world. (Laughter.)

But the point is, young Americans care. Californians care.

People all over this country care. And we have to address this issue. We can do it. The greatness and strength of America is in our innovative capability and our abiity to develop these green technologies. General Electric, the world's largest corporation, is committed to green technologies. We can do it.

And to somehow believe it will cost more money if we unleash the innovative and entrepreneurship of America, I think does not have confidence in the ability of Americans to address this issue.

COOPER: And Governor Romney, what did you think of Senator McCain's response? And just to remind you, the original question is, do you side with Governor Schwarzenegger or with the Bush administration on this issue?

ROMNEY: Well, I said with states to be able to make their own regulations with regards to emissions within their own states.

But let's talk about our policies with regards to greenhouse gases and global warming. I think we all agree that America should become energy independent.

The consequences of us continuing to buy over a billion dollars of oil a day from people who oftentimes use this money against us -- it's bad for our economy, it's bad for our foreign policy, and all that energy being used is probably bad for our environment. It's probably warming our environment, and we want that to stop.

So a unilateral action to get ourselves off of foreign oil makes all the sense in the world. Nuclear power, biodiesel, biofuel, all the renewables, liquefied coal, where you sequester the carbon dioxide -- those things make all the sense in the world. But when you put in place a new cap or a mandate and particularly if you don't have any safety valve as to how much the cost that cap might be, you would impose on the American people -- if you do it unilaterally, without involving all the world -- you'd impose on the American people a huge new effective tax: 20 percent on utilities, 50 cents a gallon for gasoline -- that's according to the Energy Information Agency -- would be imposed on us.

And here's what happens. I've lived in the business world. I've lived in the real economy for 25 years of my life. What happens if you do that, if you put a big burden on energy in this country, is the energy intensive industries say we're going to move our new facilities from America to China where they don't have those agreements, and you end up polluting and putting just as much CO2 in the air because the big energy users go there. That's why these ideas make sense, but only on a global basis.

They don't call it America warming. They call it global warming.

That's why you've got to have a president that understands the real economy.

COOPER: Just so I'm clear, you said you side with the states. That means you side with Governor Schwarzenegger -- MR. ROMNEY: I side with states being able to make their own decisions, even if I don't always agree with the decisions they make.

COOPER: Governor Huckabee.

HUCKABEE: Well, I was a governor two-and-a-half years. I was chairman of the National Governors Association, which means that my fellow governors selected me to chair the organization of all 50 governors.

Let me tell you why I believe that Governor Schwarzenegger ought to be able to carry out the plan. Because if he's right, every other state's going to copy him. And if he's wrong, every other state's going to recruit the jobs that he lost in California to their own states.

The genius of our system has always been that if you have states acting as laboratories of good government, rather than mess it up for all 50 states, you get the chance to find out, does it work? And if it does, we all copy it. And then we make a little change and we claim it for our own. If it doesn't work, we do everything we can to make sure that the jobs that maybe he loses, we get in our own state.

It's the genius of our founding fathers, when they had the idea of federalism. Thomas Jefferson was right, and Alexander Hamilton was wrong. That debate, we thought, was settled. But we've got a federal government that wants to give us unfunded mandates at the state level and doesn't want us to experiment with ideas in good government that might solve a lot of the problems that our country faces.

COOPER: Congressman Paul, do you agree with Governor Schwarzenegger on this one?

PAUL: Yes, I think California should do what they want, and we all recognize that.

But one thing that hasn't been emphasized here that should be emphasized when we're dealing with the environment and -- and gashouse -- you know, greenhouse gases is property rights. We -- we neglected during the Industrial Revolution property rights, and governments and big corporations got together and colluded. And that's what has to be reversed. You have to emphasize the property rights.

But I would like to take one minute, since I didn't get a chance to answer this discussion on -- on conservative versus liberal --

COOPER: We're going to have -- I promise you we're going to have a -- you're going to have another opportunity to do that, I promise you, coming up in like two minutes, or two questions.

I just want to go right now to Janet, Janet Hook, for questions for Governor Huckabee.

HOOK: Yes. Let's turn for a minute to the troubled economy we're trying to deal with. Governor Huckabee, President Bush and some of your opponents on the stage here believe that giving income tax rebates is the best way to stimulate the economy. You've disagreed and suggested that spending federal highway money to widen I-95 from Bangor to Miami would do more to help the nation's economy. Now, how is that idea different from the big-government projects that we usually associate with Democrats?

HUCKABEE: Well, if we end up with the rebates, we're going to borrow the $150 billion from China. And when we turn it into rebates, most people are going to go out and buy some consumables, like a pair of shoes that they probably don't even need, but they're going to buy them, and they're most likely an import from China. My point is, whose economy are we stimulating when we do that?

The Heritage Foundation did a pretty interesting study on past rebates and found that it does not really stimulate the economy in the way that we hope that it will.

My point was that if you really want an economic stimulus package, look at what infrastructure investment does, and we've got a crumbling infrastructure. I don't have to tell the people of California that traffic is clogged, and the reason that we have a problem is that because we're not addressing is that because we're not addressing it. Every billion dollars we spend on highway construction results in 47,500 jobs, but the fact is, the average American is sitting in traffic 38 hours a year. That's a full work week -- not on vacation, not spent with their kids, stuck in traffic, just sitting there behind the wheel pointing fingers, usually one at a time, at other motors (sic) -- (laughter) -- and very upset with what's going on around them in the traffic.

The point is we are burning a lot of fuel up into the air polluting the environment. We're wasting time. Parents never get home to their kids' soccer games and recitals. And the real sad thing is we have bridges falling down on people in the United States of America.

Now, my point is -- and it's not necessarily just I-95 from Bangor to Miami. I said that when I was in Florida. Today we might look at a Western highway that would go down the California coast. (Laughter.) But my point is that infrastructure in this country has been neglected, whether it's our airports, our bridges, our roads.

And I don't think there's a governor in a state that wouldn't tell you that you'll create more jobs and you'll build it with American workers, American concrete and American steel. That's stimulus.

COOPER: Let's ask other governor -- let's ask the other governor on the stage. Governor Romney, what do you think about it?

ROMNEY: There's no question but that investment in infrastructure makes enormous sense for our country. It's good for business. It's good for the economy. And as the governor that watched the completion -- well, almost the completion of the Big Dig -- I think that was -- I don't know how many governors watched that $15 billion project. They do create a lot of good jobs and they help our economy; they're great things. But unfortunately, a road project isn't going to stimulate the economy in the time frame we have right now, at the tipping point.

COOPER: Was the Big Dig good, by the way?

ROMNEY: Well, as someone once said -- it leaks badly, of course, so someone has remarked that it's the biggest carwash in America, and most expensive, too. It solved a problem, but it cost way too much money to do it, was very badly managed.

But that being said, an economic stimulus plan has to put money in the hands of consumers and businesses and homeowners now. And the reason we're asking Congress to move within 30 days is we want to get that out there now so the economy doesn't tip down.

Building a road project, you have to get designs, eminent domain, you get the engineers to approve; it takes years and years and years to get a road project. So it's a wonderful idea, but it's not related to short-term economic stimulus.

COOPER: Congressman Paul.

PAUL: Well, you know, the governor says that you have to borrow for a handout of a check from the Chinese. Where are you going to get the money to build the highway? Same old thing. You know, we have a foreign policy where we blow up bridges overseas; and then we tax the people to go over and rebuild the bridges overseas; and our bridges are falling down and our infrastructure's falling down.

So, yes, this money should be spent back here at home.

We have a trillion-dollar foreign operation to operate our empire. That's where the money is. You can't keep borrowing from China. You can't keep printing the money.

We have to cut some spending. That's what nobody here talks about. Where do you cut spending if you want to spend some money? We need lower taxes, less regulations and we need to free up the market.

We can't expect the government to do everything. We have to have faith and confidence that the market works, but you can't do any of that unless you look at the monetary system.

COOPER: The next question to Senator McCain, from Jim VandeHei.

VANDEHEI: We're staying on the economy here. As you well know, foreclosures last year were up 75 percent. A lot of people are losing homes. A lot of people who have adjustable-rate mortgages are about to have them adjust up.

(Name and location inaudible) -- wants to know if you have a plan to help people with bad credit get lower interest rates, so they can keep those homes and avoid foreclosure.

MCCAIN: Yeah, and it's tough and it's tough here in California. It's tough in Arizona. It's tough particularly all over but it's very tough particularly in the high-growth states. And I think the efforts that have been made so far are laudable. We may have to go further.

But the fact that the FHAs and the other organizations of government under Secretary Paulson's direction, and I think he is doing a good job sitting down and fixing at least a significant number of these problems.

I think that we've got to return to the principle that you don't lend money to people that can't pay it back. I think that there are some greedy people that -- in Wall Street that perhaps need to be punished.

I think there's got to be a huge amount more of transparency as to how this whole thing came about, so we can prevent it from happening again. When a town in Norway is somehow affected by the housing situation in the United States of America, it's -- we -- we've gotten ourselves into a very interesting dilemma.

If necessary, we're going to have to take additional actions and particularly in cleaning up our mortgage -- a mortgage should be one page. And there should be big letters at the bottom that says, "I understand this document." We ought to adjust the mortgages of people who were eligible for better terms but were somehow convinced to accept the mortgages which were more onerous on them.

We need to fix the rating systems, which -- which clearly were erroneous in their -- in their ratings, which led people to believe that there were these institutions which were stable, which clearly are not.

So I think what we've done so far is good. I think we may have to take further steps if this subprime lending situation continues to be serious.

And finally -- could I just mention -- on the issue of rebates, fine, because part of this is psychological. Part of the problem we have, of course, in any recession is psychological and I'm still optimistic that nothing is inevitable. I still rely on the innovation and the talent of the United States of America, but we've got to make the tax cuts permanent. We need to get rid of the alternate minimum tax. We need to give people a depreciation in one year for their -- in business and investment. We need to encourage research and development and tax credits that are associated with it. And we've got to stop the spending. We've got to stop -- one place where Ron Paul and I are in total agreement: spending is out of control, and I'm tired of borrowing money from China.

COOPER: Let's pick up on that with Janet Hook from the Los Angeles Times.

Janet?

HOOK: Senator McCain, you're talking about making the tax cuts permanent, and as Governor Romney pointed out before, you opposed the Bush tax cuts the first time around. Now more recently you've been saying that the reason why you opposed the tax cuts at first was because they weren't offset by spending cuts. But back when you actually voted against the tax cuts in Congress, you said you opposed them because they favored the wealthy too much.

So which is it? And if they were too skewed to the wealthy at first, are they still too skewed to the wealthy?

MCCAIN: Actually, I think lower- and middle-income Americans need more help. Obviously I think that's the case today; that's one reason why we're giving them rebates. I was part of the Reagan revolution. I was there with Jack Kemp and Phil Graham and Warren Rudman and all these other first that wanted to change a terrible economic situation in America with 10 percent unemployment and 20 percent interest rates.

I was proud to be a foot soldier, support those tax cuts, and they had spending restraints associated with it.

I made it very clear when I ran in 2000 that I had a package of tax cuts, which were very important and very impactful, but I also had restraints in spending. And I disagreed when spending got out of control, and I disagreed when we had tax cuts without spending restraint. And guess what? Spending got out of control.

Republicans lost the 2006 election not over the war in Iraq; over spending. Our base became disenchanted. If we had done what I wanted to do, we would not only have had the spending restraint, but we'd be talking about additional tax cuts today. I'm proud of my record. I'm proud of my record as a foot soldier in the Reagan Revolution. And now I'm prepared to lead in restraining spending.

COOPER: Governor Romney, what do you think of Senator McCain's response?

ROMNEY: I appreciate his response and appreciate the fact he was part of the Reagan Revolution. I think that the Bush revolution and the downturn that we faced when he came into office suggested that we needed a tax cut. There's no question in my mind that Ronald Reagan would have said "sign it and vote for it," and Senator McCain was one of two that did not. And again, the justification at the time was because it represents a tax cut for the rich. I believe in getting rates down. I think that builds our economy.

When we talk about spending, however, I hope people in the country understand that most people in Washington, most politicians generally, want to talk about the two-and-three-and-four-dollar relative items. They won't talk about the big one.

Right now federal spending is about 60 percent for entitlement -- Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid -- and that's growing like crazy. It'll be 70 percent entitlements, plus interest, by the time of the next president's second term.

And then the military is about 20 percent today. No one's talking about cutting the military. We ought to grow it. So people talk about the 20 percent and how we have to go after that 20 percent.

There's not enough in the 20 percent to go after if we don't go after the entitlement problem.

And you listen to all the folks running for president. No one wants to talk about it, but we have to talk about it. We have to put together a plan that says we're going to rein in the excessive growth in those areas, promising to meet the obligations we made to seniors.

We're not going to change the deal on seniors but we're going to have to change the deal for 20-and-30-and-40-year-olds, or we're going to bankrupt our country.

COOPER: Let's talk about another issue, which a lot of Americans watching tonight want to talk about, immigration. Jim VandeHei has a question.

VANDEHEI: Obviously we're here in California, where one- third of the population is Hispanic. Latino immigration has been a huge issue in this campaign from the beginning.

Governor Huckabee -- (name and location inaudible) -- wants to know, in order to curb illegal immigration, do you support making changes in the law that would give citizenship only to children who are born to parents who are legally in this country at the time the child is born?

HUCKABEE: I think the Supreme Court's already ruled on that.

The real issue is, that doesn't fix the problem.

What we've got to do is to have a secure border fence, something I propose that we do within 18 months of taking office. If we don't have a secure fence, and have just this open door that people can come in and out at will, we're never going to deal with this issue effectively and responsibly.

And today many Americans are angry, not that people want to come here, and I have repeatedly said -- I'm going to say it again -- people in this country, I think, are grateful to God they're in a land that people are trying to break into and not one they're trying to break out of. So it's not that we're building a fence so we can keep our people in or keep people out, but that people who do come here would have to come legally.

And -- and touching the issue of -- of those born here is not the challenge. It's two things. It's first making sure that that fence is built, I think within 18 months. And the second thing is that we have a process where the people who are here would have to go to the back of the line and start over.

And it's not to be cruel. I want to make sure you understand.

It's to make -- that everybody who's living in our boundaries has their head up and lives in the light, not the darkness, and doesn't run and hide every time they see a police car. We owe it not just to the people who have waited in line a long time; we owe it to the people who do want to live here and work here, but create a system that is legal, that makes sense and that actually protects our borders, but protects the dignity and worth of every person.

MR. VANDEHEI: Governor Romney, I interviewed you in New Hampshire a couple of weeks ago. We talked a little bit about illegal immigration. You've taken a very hard stance against illegal immigration.

You said at the time that you felt that there's -- for a lot of illegal immigrants who are there, under your plan, we could deport many of them within 90 days. How could that happen?

How could we do it that quickly?

ROMNEY: I think you may be confusing me with somebody else, but perhaps not. Let me tell you what my plan is.

MR. VANDEHEI: (Inaudible) -- at the time -- I'll even just give you the quote if you'd like.

ROMNEY: Okay.

MR. VANDEHEI: You said that many of those could be deported immediately, but that would allow slower deportation process for those with families in deeper roots. When we asked how quickly, you said -- you thought was -- with as quickly as 90 days.

ROMNEY: Yeah, my plan is this, which is, for those that have come here illegally and are here illegally today, no amnesty. Now how do people return home? Under the ideal setting, at least in my view, you say to those that have just come in recently, we're going to send you back home immediately; we're not going to let you stay here, you just go back home. For those that have been here, let's say, five years and have kids in school, you allow kids to complete the school year, you allow people to make their arrangements and allow them to return back home. Those that have been here a long time with kids that have responsibilities here and so forth you let stay enough time to organize their affairs and go home.

But the key is this: These individuals are free to get in line with everyone else that wants to become a permanent resident or citizen, but no special pathway; no special deal that says because you're here illegally you get to stay here for the rest of your life. And that's what I've found to be so offensive with the Z Visa, which was in the McCain-Kennedy bill. It said to all illegal aliens, unless you're a criminal, you're all allowed to stay here for $3,000 for the rest of your life.

And that's a mistake.

In my view, let us have this fixed period of time, 90 days for some, depending on their circumstances, others longer, to the end of the school year, even longer, potentially, do it in a humane and compassionate way; but say to those that have come here illegally, you must return home, you must get in line with everybody else that wants to come here. There are millions throughout the world who want to come to this country legally. It's a wonderful privilege. But those that have come here illegally should not be given a better deal.

I was just at the swearing-in of some 700 citizens just a day or two ago in Tampa, Florida, and it was a thrilling thing to see these folks coming out, shaking their hands. People who come here legally are a great source of vitality and strength for our country, but illegal immigration, that's got to end. (Applause.)

COOPER: Let's follow up. Janet Hook with the L.A. Times with a follow-up question.

HOOK: Senator McCain, let me just take the issue to you, because you obviously have been very involved in it. During this campaign, you, like your rivals, have been putting the first priority, heaviest emphasis, on border security. But your original immigration proposal back in 2006 was much broader and included a pathway to citizenship for illegal immigrants who are already here.

What I'm wondering is, and you seem to be downplaying that part, at this point, if your original proposal came to a vote in the Senate floor, would you vote for it?

MCCAIN: It won't. It won't. That's why we went through the debate.

HOOK: I know, but what if it did?

MCCAIN: No, I would not, because we know what the situation is today. The people want the border secured first. And so to say that that would come to the floor of the Senate, it won't. We went through various amendments which prevented that ever, that proposal.

But look, we're all on agreement as to what we need to do. Everybody knows that we can fight some more about it, about who wanted this or who wanted that. But the fact is, we all know the American people want the border secured first.

We will secure the borders first when I am president of the United States. I know how to do that. I come from a border state, where we know about building walls and vehicle barriers and sensors and all of the things necessary. I will have the border state governors certify the borders are secured, and then we will move on to the other aspects of this issue.

Probably as importantly is tamper-proof biometric documents, which then, unless an employer hires someone with those documents, that employer will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. And that will cause a lot of people to leave voluntarily. There's 2 million people who are here who have committed crimes. They have to be rounded up and deported.

And we're all basically in agreement there are humanitarian situations; it varies with what -- how they've been here, et cetera, et cetera.

We are all committed to carrying out the mandate of the American people, which is a national security issue, which is securing the borders. That was part of the original proposal. But the American people didn't trust or have confidence in us that we would do it. So we now know we have to secure the borders first. And that is what needs to be done. That's what I'll do as president of the United States.

COOPER: So I just want to confirm. You would not vote for your bill as it originally was --

MCCAIN: My bill will not be voted on. It will not be voted on. I will sit and work with Democrats and Republicans and with all people, and we will have the principles, securing the borders first -- and then if you want me to go through the description all over again, I would be glad to. We will secure the borders first.

COOPER: Time.

MCCAIN: That's the responsibility and the priority of the American people.

COOPER: We're going to be -- actually, we're going to be taking a short break. But before we do, one other question.

Governor -- this one goes to Governor Huckabee. On July 6th, 1981, which was actually Nancy Reagan's birthday, Ronald Reagan wrote in his diary about Justice Sandra Day O'Connor -- and the Reagan Library has graciously allowed us to actually have the original Reagan diary right here on the desk; I'm a little too nervous to actually even touch it -- but that is the -- Ronald Reagan's original diary.

And in it he wrote, by his hand -- he said, "Called Judge O'Connor in Arizona and told her she was my nominee for Supreme Court.

Already the flak is starting, and from my own supporters. Right-to- life people say there's no -- right-to-life people say she's pro- abortion; she declares abortion is personally repugnant to her. I think she'll make a good justice." That's Ronald Reagan's words from his own book.

Governor Huckabee, was she the right choice?

HUCKABEE: History will have to determine that. And I'm not going to come to the Reagan Library and say anything about Ronald Reagan's decisions. I'm not that stupid. (Laughter.) If I was, I'd have no business being president. (Laughter.)

I think we need to talk about why the issue of right to life is important. For many of us, this is not a political issue, this is an issue of principle and conviction. And it goes to the heart of who we are as a country.

If we value each other as human beings and believe that everybody has equal worth and that that intrinsic value is not affected by net worth or ancestry or last name or job description or ability or disability, then the issue of the sanctity of human life is far bigger than just being anti-abortion; it's about being pro-life and exercising that deep conviction held by our Founding Fathers that all of us are equal and no one is more equal than another; recognizing that once we ever decide that some people are more equal or less equal than other, then we start moving that line, and it may include us someday.

And that's why for many of us -- and me included -- let me be very clear. I'm pro-life. I value every human being and I would always make every decision, always, on the side of life, every time I could, without equivocation.

COOPER: Yes or no, Congressman Paul, was Sandra Day O'Connor the right choice?

PAUL: I wouldn't have appointed her because I would have looked for somebody that I would have seen a much stricter constitutionalist. And --

COOPER: Senator McCain?

MCCAIN: I'm proud of Sandra Day O'Connor as a fellow Arizonan, and my heart goes out to her and family that -- situation that they have today. And I'm proud of her.

The judges I would appoint are along the lines of Judge -- Justices Roberts and Alito have a proven record of strict interpretation of the Constitution of the United States of America.

I'm not going to second-guess President Reagan.

COOPER: Governor Romney?

ROMNEY: I would approve justices -- I would have favored justices like Roberts and Alito, Scalia and Thomas. I like justices that follow the Constitution, do not make law from the bench. I would have much rather had a justice of that nature.

COOPER: We're going to pause for a quick commercial break. The debate continues when we return.

(Announcements.)

COOPER: And welcome back to the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library in Simi Valley, California, our continuing debate. We have about a little bit more than 30 minutes left to go, a lot of questions to get to, so let's get started. This first one to Governor Romney.

Peggy Noonan, President Bush's former -- excuse me, President Reagan's former speechwriter, recently wrote in The Wall Street Journal, and I quote, "George W. Bush destroyed the Republican Party, by which I mean he sundered it, broke its constituent pieces apart and set them against each other. He did this on spending, the size of government, war, the ability to prosecute war, immigration and other issues."

Is the Republican Party better off than it was eight years ago?

ROMNEY: I don't think we'd say it's better off than it was eight years ago, to be truthful.

I think the eight years that you've seen, and I don't blame that on President Bush. I blame that on Washington. I look at what he tried to do. He took on some tough issues. He took on Social Security, for instance, put forward a plan to reform Social Security. And the other side of the aisle said, what, me worry; we got no problem. And they were unwilling to become engaged and to take that on.

He was hit by something which completely took his agenda off course, and that was the Iraq conflict and the attack of 9/11 and Afghanistan. All these things came together. He did something for our party that was important to do, which is to show that when someone attacks America, there will be consequences. And he kept us safe these last six years. (Applause.)

And that's a very important legacy that he left for the Republican Party in a positive way, and I watch with horror as I watch the Democratic candidates for president all having a competition.

When asked, is it more important that we win in Iraq or that we get out, it was very clear in the answer of all three candidates getting out was more important than winning, and they're wrong. And I'm pleased that this president has stood for strength.

There are places, however, that I think you look and say we've weakened ourselves. One is with regards spending. We have overspent in Washington. Even discretionary funds have gone up well above inflation. I'd cap inflation less 1 percent, but that was a problem. We did not deal with entitlements. He tried; he did not get the support he needed. He did fight for better schools. I think No Child Left Behind takes the ball forward, not backward. So we made some progress.

But we're in a house that Reagan built. It's important that we, as Republicans, stay in the house that Reagan built. If we want to take the White House again, social, economic and foreign policy conservatives have to come together.

COOPER: Let's talk about foreign policy. You're all going to be able to weigh in on the -- (applause) -- question of Iraq.

Let's go right now to Janet for the first question.

HOOK: Yeah, I'd like to start with Governor Romney.

Obviously Iraq is still a major issue in this campaign, and over the last few days there's been a real back and forth going on here. Senator McCain has said over and over again that you supported a timetable for phased withdrawal from Iraq.

Is that true?

ROMNEY: Absolutely unequivocably (sic) -- (chuckles) -- if I can get that word out -- unequivocably (sic), absolutely no. I have never ever supported a specific timetable for exit from Iraq, and it's offensive to me that someone would suggest that I have. And I have noted that everyone from Time Magazine to Bill Bennett over there, to -- to actually, CNN's own analyst. He said it was a lie, and it's absolutely wrong.

I do not support that, never have.

We've had -- we've -- and Senator McCain pointed to an interview I had back in April with ABC, when I said that our president and their prime minister should have timetables and milestones. We have timetables and milestones for progress that we're making together.

But I never suggested a date specific to withdraw. And actually she asked me a question. The next question was, "If Congress were to give you a date specific for withdrawal, would you sign it or veto it?" I said I'd veto it. I'm opposed to setting a specific date for withdrawal.

By the way, we've had since that time 10, 12 debates. Senator McCain never raised that question in any of those debates. If you ever wondered what my position was, he could have -- could have raised it.

I instead have pointed out time and time again -- and let me make it absolutely clear again tonight -- I will not pull our troops out until we have brought success in Iraq. And that means for me that we do not have safe havens for al Qaeda or Hezbollah or anyone else; that our troops have secured the -- the population from that kind of threat; that they will not have safe havens from which they could launch attacks against us.

And if there's any misunderstanding, those words should make it perfectly clear, as have every single debate that I've attended -- 15 debates -- I do not propose nor have I ever proposed a public or secret date for withdrawal. It's -- is simply wrong.

And by the way, raising it a few days before the -- the Florida primary, when there was very little time for me to correct the record, when the question I was most frequently asked is, "Oh, you're for a specific date of withdrawal," sort of falls in the kind of dirty tricks that I think Ronald Reagan would have found to be reprehensible.

(Applause, cheers.)

COOPER: Senator McCain, tough words.

MCCAIN: Well, of course, he said he wanted a timetable before that. We have to understand that we lost the 2006 election and the Democrats thought that they had a mandate. They thought they had a mandate to get us out of Iraq. And I was prepared to sacrifice whatever was necessary in order to stand up for what I believe in.

Now, in December of 2006, after the election, Governor Romney was asked what he thought about the surge. He said at that time: I won't weigh in; I'm a governor. At the time he didn't want to weigh in because he was a governor, I was out there on the front lines with my friends saying, we not only can't withdraw, but we got to have an additional -- additional troops over there in order for us to have a chance to succeed.

Then in April, April was a very interesting year (sic) in 2007. That's when Harry Reid said the war is lost and we got to get out. And the buzzword was "timetables." Timetables.

Governor, the right answer to that question was "no," not what you said, and that was, we don't want to have to lay -- have them lay in the weeds until we leave, and Maliki and the president should enter into some kind of agreement for, quote, "timetables."

Timetables was the buzzword for withdrawal.

ROMNEY: Why don't you use the whole quote, Senator?

MCCAIN: I'm using your whole quote, where you said --

ROMNEY: Why do you insist on not using the actual quote?

That's not what I said.

MCCAIN: The actual quote is, we don't want them to lay in the weeds until we leave. That is the actual quote, and I'm sure fact-checkers --

ROMNEY: What does that mean? What does that mean, we don't want them --

MCCAIN: It means a timetable for until we leave.

(Cross talk.)

ROMNEY: Is it not fair to have the person, who's being accused of having a position he doesn't have, be the expert on what his position is? How is it that you're the expert on my position, when my position has been very clear? (Cheers, applause, cross talk.)

MCCAIN: I'm the expert on this -- when you said, I won't weigh in; I'm a governor.

ROMNEY: That's a separate point.

MCCAIN: You couldn't weigh in because you were a governor back when we were having the fight over it.

ROMNEY: That's a separate point. That's a separate point.

MCCAIN: The fact is that I have fought for this surge. I have said, we need to have this succeed. I know the situation in Iraq and I am proud to have supported this president and supported the fact that we are succeeding in Iraq today.

If we had done, if we had waited, laid in the weeds until we leave, then al Qaeda would have won, and we would be facing a disastrous situation.

COOPER: There's two separate issues being discussed, and I just want to clarify both of them. (Cross talk, applause.)

To Senator McCain, the quote is from Governor Romney on GMA that you're quoting. The actual quote is, "Well, there's no question that the president and Prime Minister al-Maliki have to have a series of timetables and milestones that they speak about."

MCCAIN: Timetables and milestones.

COOPER: But those shouldn't be for public pronouncement. You don't want the enemy to understand how long they have to wait in the weeds until you're going to be gone. (Inaudible.)

MCCAIN: (Inaudible) -- (cheers, applause) -- until the enemy waits in the weeds until we leave. That means that we were leaving.

SEN./MR.: (Inaudible.)

MCCAIN: (Inaudible) --

(Cross talk.)

ROMNEY: If you have a question on this, you can ask it.

MCCAIN: (Inaudible) -- could not weigh in as governor o